Nobel Prize winner John O’Keefe believes the UK should loosen immigration regulations to ensure that we are able to attract the best talent. Do you agree?
A clear majority of the 437 respondent to last week’s poll chose options opposing the loosening of immigration rules. The largest group, 35 per cent, said that we should concentrate on training the existing UK workforce; 21 per cent thought the current laws didn’t affect the UK’s ability to attract highly-skilled immigrants; while 17 per cent thought rules should be tightened rather than loosened.Of those in favour of loosening the rules, 17 per cent were concerned that current rules did not attract the best and brightest, while 13 per cent thought the UK was not a welcoming place for the best talent from overseas.
Please continue to send us your thoughts on this subject.
No. We should concentrate more on training the existing UK workforce
Yes. You should relax immigration to attract the top talent whilst training the local workforce. This creates a more competitive field and ensures top talent recruit as opposed to a capped talent field. If local candidates are losing out, perhaps the level excellence needs to be reviewed to ensure they are globally competitive. The issue of immigration does not lie in the number of employed immigrants but rather illegal immigration due to the lack of any form of structure in the immigration system all together where the number of immigrants leaving the country is not accounted for nor enforced.
It is amusing that the British authorities are still debating on this issue when they have given hostage to all the islamic extremists all these years. Instead of focusing on extremists immigration, the UK government instead tightens the laws for educated and talented foreigners who just want to have a decent quality of lift and earn some good money which is beneficial to the UK’s economy as well. My two bits stop wasting time on debating immigration of talented people which your old country definitely needs to grow further. It is very easy to say that you should train the local British population but unfortunately the young Brits are lazy and too much into enjoying life and partying all the time so you need foreigners to do the work for you! The UK government should rather expel the extremist fringe elements living their without contributing to UK’s economy and living off luxuriously at the tax payer’s expense.
A fine sentiment for Mr O’Keefe to espouse from the security of academia’s ivory towers where he doesn’t have to compete for diminishing wages in a dwindling job market.
Immigration also affects a lot more than jobs but I don’t expect the likes of him to even consider that.
The visa system in operation in the UK is fraught with uncertainty for potential migrants, and significant costs. Speaking personally, I traveled to the UK from Australia in 2009 on a Tier 5 Youth Mobility visa – one of the two ways for a young person without a secure job offer to work in the UK (the second route is as a Graduate Entrepreneur -see http://www.siriusprogramme.com/). I soon had two job offers, in Milton Keynes and Cambridge – not bad given the economy and the trouble I’d had finding work in Australia. I expect it was because I was willing to take a non-glamorous graduate engineer position that no-one else was really interested in.
The Youth Mobility Visa lasts two years, just enough time to get yourself nicely established. This visa can not be renewed however. Once I had secured a certificate of Sponsorship from my employer (they had to advertise my job for 30 days to prove I was the best candidate) I had to travel at my own expense back to Australia in order to apply for a Tier 2 visa. This meant leaving most of my possessions, rental property and car in the UK; putting aside concerns that if my application had been refused, I likely would have been refused re-entry on a holiday visa to put things right due to the (perceived) risk that I would then over-stay.
That was nearly three years ago now, but the situation hasn’t improved. In January I need to apply to extend my visa another two years. I own a house here in the UK now, had to buy a new car for work (on finance) and am now married and supporting my wife as a dependent on my visa. If this upcoming extension is rejected I have no idea how I will settle the house and car – I can only apply to extend the visa within three months of it expiring, so by the time I have the decision back from the Home Office I’ll be forced to appeal if the application is refused, simply to give myself time to sort my affairs and sell up. If approved, in another 2 years I’ll have the same uncertainty all over again applying for permanent leave to remain.
Ironically, as a Commonwealth citizen I can (and do) legally vote in the UK, but in terms of residency qualify for nothing.
Both the yes options look very similar…
I voted yes on the basis that this poll is aimed at bringing scientific and engineering talent in.
I do enjoy partying by the way – what’s wrong with that?!
Yes. We need to ensure that the brightest and best are able to come to work in the UK
I have so many clients who can’t progress their product forward as they lack the resources. Technology and Engineering is screaming out for new talent and UK-based candidates are very difficult to find. Engineers from overseas can add huge value to our UK economy.
The vote options don’t really fit my opinion but then I am an Engineer!
I would vote No to relaxing but yes to ensuring the appropriate people are able to work in the UK.
I have worked at home and overseas and find ANY work away from your home base is made more difficult by the rules and regulations of whichever country I have worked in. The politicians need to sort out the healthcare and benefits system to ensure only those that pay in receive support, cross border working should be made easier within the EU whereas any potential workers outside the EU should be at least sponsored by a University or Employer.
With a subject as clear cut as this where a simple yes/no vote would suffice why is it deemed necessary to split the yes vote 2 ways and the No vote 3 ways?????
As an immigrant I say immigration is lax enough. The UK has access to 500 million European citizen That’s half of what China has, and more than the US.
In addition there are those from commonwealth countries.
If that aren’t enough (human) resources, then more won’t get you farther.
Maybe it’s time the UK start thinking efficiency – getting more results with less input?
There is already a large assess to a pool of EU people. Also if you are in an area of high skill like engineering then getting a visa is much easier. My experience of foreign engineers has been that we don’t get many coming to the UK. Those that do tend to only be interested in working in London. I know some that have come to the UK and have chosen to work outside of a metropolitan area and they haven’t lasted long, not that our home-grown engineers last much longer in remote areas. They have moved to London or away from the UK as a result. I just don’t think we can attract engineers to come to the UK.
I graduated from a Polytechnic of Central London in 1975 and emigrated to US in 1990 and came back for vacation in 2005 and went to the same building to see any improvements. What I found was that it had turned into Westminster University and Engineering Department had either been closed down or moved and was very disappointed.
It appears very few of our young people are interested in Engineering so bring in the Talent & we do not have Enoch Powell.
Australia advertises for the skills it requires to maintain its economy whilst having strict rules on immigration. We should encourage anyone with the skills to come here but more importantly train our own people to have those skills.
Unfortunately they are often denied places at University because University policies are to have high foreign student numbers in order to make large profits which they then use to build more student accommodation so they can have more foreign students. There is a massive skills shortage and we are allowing our children to leave schools without the skills required to fit into the modern workplace. They then can’t get unskilled work because we already have that end of the job market filled by foreigners. This is the worse country in Europe for protecting the rights of it’s own citizens
In reply to Simmi Juss | 7 Oct 2014 1:55 pm
Yes. We need to ensure that the brightest and best are able to come to work in the UK
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When ministers talk of “Best and brightest” they mean only those who qualify for Tier 1 – Exceptional Talent visas, who have “been endorsed as an internationally recognised leader or emerging leader in your field in science, humanities, engineering, medicine, digital technology or the arts”.
This bar is incredibly high – “Successful applicants will be currently engaged professionally as practitioners in their field and able to evidence a substantial track record at a high level in at least one country other than their country of residence.” So you have to work in a foreign country already before you are eligible to apply to work in the UK.
In previous years a Masters or PhD was sufficient for a Tier 1 (General) visa, but this route is now closed.
Wonder what Brunel would have thought?
Innovation creation is according to Keynsian theory the ONLY way out of economic doldrums. In these more modern times we might diagnose “doldrums” as more specific “consumer fatigue” and that our species is uncomfortable with the existence we have created in a “market society” rather than the more benign “market economy”.
Any psychologist will tell you the education systems we have do NOT engender innovation, societal innovation or scientific. Australia has had an immigration nearly 1 million new “citizens” in the past 2.5 yrs, that’s 1/23 or nearly 5% population increase ! It has been credited with being HALF of the GDP growth of this pathetically governed country each of the past three years.
Innovation which is appropriate is done FROM the societal instincts to IMPROVE the society the innovator lives in, it is grown from a creativity engendered by a deeper sense of community identity that simply importing some seeker for bettering their financial status.
I am heartily SICK of coming home from work overseas, from among malgoverned states and economic chaos to find the same thing happening in my Australian neighbourhood.
The situation with climate change and hydrocarbon fuel all suggests to me the UNHCR treaty observation continuance for this country will be an unmitigated disaster. It was adopted in 1948, under completely different circumstances. The engineers, doctors and educators are sorely needed at their states of origin.
North America took advantage of the enormous brain migration since 1960 until today. What else should be explained?
There are more than enough British Engineers and Scientists in the World to fill all of Britiain’s need for “talent”.
Unfortunately the UK’s policies over the past 15 to 20 years have done very little to encourage homegrown talent to remain in the UK. Thus there have been and continue to be very large numbers of UK engineers and scientists who are immigrants in Countries that are considerably more picky than the UK.
All that the UK policies have done for science and engineering , is to introduce huge amounts of cheap mediocre “talent” that couldn’t get in to better destinations at the expense of Brits who have know choice but to move to the better destinations if they want to be paid a fair sum for their Talent.
When will people wake up and realise that quality matters, and that quality is seriously lacking in the UK .
Phd doesn’t equal quality .
The best Brits have gone and continue to go elsewhere, what the Government needs to do is start to encourage some of those people back.
I, and Vince Cable for that matter, grew up in a UK where the only immigrant workers the were needed here were Irish navvies and Irish nurses. Now we seem to need every type of worker from physicists to pizza delivery boys, or girls. What a grand achievement the main political parties have given us over the last fifty or so years.
a clear no a close look at FE and HE will show it is not a lack of youngsters wanting to be engineers .Many work very hard to get qualifications and deserve a chance to prove themselves for a living wage, we produce great engineers in the UK .The nightmare scenario is that we get all engineers from abroad we therefore see no need to train any more Engineers how sad will that be.
I think this poll and John O’Keefe’s point that we should ‘loosen’ immigration regulations does not offer the option I would like to be able to choose, a more principled option – ‘immigration regulations should be abolished’ – or at the least‘ immigration regulations should not be based simply on short term aims such as getting the best talent for business’.
I know both ‘right’ (‘destroying our culture’) and ‘left’/green (‘finite resources- too many people’) will in their own ways converge in agreement in their opposition to the above options. The point here is that all of these important political discussions are predicated on the assumption of ‘finite limits’ blocking free movement, people being net users of resources etc. (rather than problem solvers)
Where as in the past Engineering would have been seen as the provider of plenty to transcend such limits, now we have lost the ambition and confidence to believe that we can expand our resources (yes I manes without destroying the planet). Engineering is now all about eeking out our (supposedly) limited resources or even nudging us to stop using so much. Hence the timid request to get the government to allow a few ‘talented’ people in for basically short term aims and gains rather than being bold enough to say that immigrants if not in the first generation, maybe in the next may also develop ideas and industries on a par and if not greater than say Graphene.
If Engineering is to have another golden age in the UK (rather than making components for other peoples smart meters and satellites) – we need to connect an ambition to deal with perceived limits and be confident enough to say we will happily receive that great resource: ‘human immigration’ and look forward to the cultural changes that may entail.
The people saying “no” quote all the same reasons as I remember being quoted in Zimbabwe when I lived there about the same issue.
Good luck with that.
Editor
I can see no offence in pointing out the need to import skilled workers now at a time when education standards are supposed to be rising. That is what is the line at the moment: that we must have these highly skilled immigrants. I suggest that the Engineer stays off the subject of immigration if its employees are so thin skinned.
This is a highly political topic. It is clear that over the last two decades there has been a high level of inward migration, which has been partly offset by emigration. As far as engineering is concerned there are fewer and fewer ‘natives’ entering the profession, this due to low pay (compaired to other professions) and low status in UK society. If despite these issues you still wish to become a professional engineer then the best advice I can give it to be prepared to leave the UK for most of your working life. Engineering is a portable career, and one which can serve well in many other countries. I notice that there are not many engineers from Poland or other eastern european countries coming into the UK, perhaps because there are far better opportunities elsewhere in the EU (Germany perhaps?).
So in conclusion – if you are a UK engineer then you are best off leaving the UK, and if you are a non-UK engineer then you are best off going somewhere other than the UK.
Perhaps I should heed my own advice!!
Immigration is a highly political topic and one where the moderators should refrain from political correctness to enable commentators to speak their minds even though readers of a liberal disposition might find some comments difficult to stomach.
A factor that I do not think is taken into account when debating immigration policy for Britain is that many countries in Asia, and some in Africa, have excruciatingly tight immigration laws and it does not bother them because either they develop their own homegrown talent or make use of expatriate workers which they rarely grant citizenship to. It is extremely difficult for a British citizen to become a citizen of India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Nigeria, or Algeria if they have no family connections to a native of these countries. As for Japan, Kuwait, or Qatar, citizenship is only granted as a personal favour by a member of the Royal Family. Is a lopsided immigration policy where Britain is willing to grant citizenship to people from these aforementioned nations (and their British born descendants) whilst these nations are loathe to grant British people citizenship ever justified?
We as a department have carried out interviews for the past two years to recruit both technicians and engineers to back fill for the staff that have either retired or just moved on, when I first started this job the department consisted of mostly white, local and male staff now it’s a real mix and diversity.
I do agree somewhat with the comments regarding the lack of ability and skill of local candidates (shall we call them) but I believe the problem lies with the education and training in our school and further education system rather than just partying, although some could do with a lesson in attitude!
That fine to say don’t allow anyone in but what do we do to maintain the current skill level in our workforce? The real fact is our education system has not kept up with the global changes so cannot provide suitable candidates.
We need to return to teaching subjects properly so that all pupils have a real understanding and not just giving them enough prompts to get through exams to satisfy targets!