With Honda joining other carmakers in announcing job losses in the UK, we asked our readers what action should be taken by government?
Despite comments from local MPs and, indeed, from Honda itself denying that the UK’s departure from the European Union was the major factor behind the closure decision, many commentators last week were linking the current situation with industry reducing its involvement in the UK with Brexit. It cannot be denied that the recent closure of a free trade deal between the EU and Japan will make it easier for Honda to move all production back to its home country and export to Europe. On the other hand, it is difficult to believe that Brexit uncertainty did not play some role at least, especially when so many other carmakers have also announced plans to roll back UK production.
Nonetheless, almost a third of respondents (32%) believe Brexit was not a factor in Honda’s decision at any level. The flip side is that 33% of those polled now feel that a ‘People’s vote’ is the best response, with many of those presumably hoping for a ‘remain’ option to feature on the ballot paper if a second referendum does materialise. With three cabinet ministers allegedly set to resign if Theresa May doesn’t take steps to prevent a no-deal exit – and with Labour now officially backing another public vote – there has been a shift in momentum away from the ERG and its scorched-earth Brexit plans.
Although a move towards the centre ground appears to be taking place in Westminster as the precipice of no-deal looms, where this ultimately leads is still anyone’s guess. Nearly a fifth (18%) of poll respondents still believe that ensuring a favourable trade deal with the EU should still be the government’s priority, while 10% feel that trade deals with countries beyond the EU should be the focus. Our ‘none of the above’ option was selected by 7% of readers.
We welcome continued discussion below the line but ask all readers to familiarise themselves with our guidelines on the content of comments before submitting, and remind commenters that their submissions will be moderated before publication. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks and try to keep the conversation civil and on topic.
Many years ago, I recall, I think during my time as a young Engineer at ICI Fibres, attending a lecture on innovation and its encouragement at Glasgow University. The Prof of Engineering, keen to develop the critical thinking of his students of design, described for them to consider creating a fictional place where everything was reversed. ‘Gravity’ was a force which acted up-wards, winds ‘sucked’, the natural order of temperature related matters was such that we needed to heat foodstuffs for refrigeration, and cool our bodies to get warm: you get the idea. Of course it was only a ‘game’ – but stimulating? not arf!
Sadly, it appears to me that our ‘betters’ are actually engaged in continuing almost exactly the same sort of game. It seems that decency is deceit, black is white, high is low, strong is weak…and decisions are just so much rubbish in consequence.
Since Honda and other Japanese companies can now, and indeed are, retrench back to Japan from all of Europe, not just the UK, this is plainly nothing to do with Brexit. Some media (the BBC and the Guardian for 2) will always try to link bad news to Brexit though, whatever the reality.
As for the People’s Vote – given we have had such a vote and 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU, any new vote should start by accepting the result of the last one, and exclude Remain as one of the options. So by all means ask May’s Deal or No-Deal, but nothing else.
I hope the government is reviewing any subsidies it has paid or is paying to Honda though.
No subsidies ever given or accepted. Honda has always stood on its own. Unfortunately for us ‘the workers’
39% ‘ nothing to do with Brexit’. Realy?
I have found that you can vote multiple times. Is this something to do with the above?
Disagree with the result of a vote? Delegitimise it!
“…there is nothing new under the sun”
Nothing to do with BREXIT. Absolutely right, this is due to the world economic situation and is more likely a result of ‘Trump-enomics’ !
Many nations, and Japan specifically, seem to be pulling their industries back onto their home shores, this is probably sensible protectionism at time of heightened risk.
Pwerhaps we should do the same. The stampede into of shore production was driven by low/very low labour costs in the Far East & SE Asia. Once that changed the off shore option looked less attractive. Investors and companies seem unable to grasp the benefits of modernizing and upgrading their commercial and industrial processes and rely instead on cheap labour pools with minimal if any worker protection and safeguards. There have also been rumblings about quality issues of the goods produced. A lot of offshoring has ridden on the back of the the huge increase in maritime capabilities, particularly containerization which, ironically, the Japanese car firms use intensively.
In the not too distant future there is going to be a ready made factory lying empty, with upwards of 3500 people looking for work. If electric vehicles are the future then why doesn’t the Government invest in reviving a British owned car manufacturer? If we are leading the way in developing electric vehicles, then lets do it for a UK owned brand.
You’re not talking about a Nationalised Industry there are you?
Those days are over. We’re now at the mercy of the Big ‘Non British’ Business.
If you want to invest your own money in an electric car company (“British Leyden”, anyone?) that is your prerogative – but I’d prefer you don’t do it with my money as well
This is an attractive idea and should be discussed with the staff at Honda NOW. They would just need the disciplined Japanese approach to manufacturing and we have all learnt about ISO9000 so it should be possible whereas this would not have worked in the ’70’s.
The UK always had the creative ability , we just need the discipline. Hence why the 3 big Jap firms have been making very good motors here.
Maybe a word with Wiltshire’s own Mr Dyson?
Hear, here! Let’s start with a revival of the Austin Allegro and the Montego-or perhaps the Morris Oxford, to compete with Indian models.
Without commenting on the Brexit effect, no-one seems to be thinking about any business opportunities which might arise from the withdrawal of an underperforming manufacturer from Swindon. Could the assets including the site be purchased by a better car maker? What about Chinese car makers, or could Dyson also build his electric car or batteries there? Why not a consortium of small UK car manufacturers jointly operating the site? Or supply chain specialists? If we do end up with import tariffs on cars, then we need to assemble more of them here for the domestic market, as well as components.
You may have noticed that Dyson bought Hullavington Airfield to develop the electric car, but economically, it’s cheaper to build in Singapore. The only Chinese car assembler in the UK doesn’t produce very good cars, which very few people want. If the Govt. got involved in a consortum to build electric cars, from history, it would take 20 years to decide which colour to paint the factory floor.
As most journeys are less than 10 miles, rather than build cars, why not remove VAT on electric bikes for example?
I may be considered a little extreme here, but I say shut their plant down, confiscate all their equipment and start making our own Hondas. Works for the Chinese.
No, this event does not support calls for yet another vote on Brexit. Are three votes on Brexit not sufficient: the referendum, the general election on which all parties campaigned on leaving and the vote in the house of commons affirming the Brexit referendum.
What this event does illustrate is that in a more protectionist world – free trade deals will facilitate the re-shoring of manufacturing from remote destinations to support domestic political agenda. And given the stagnant and highly indebted state of Japan’s economy, this is a needed move for Japan’s population.
What our government needs to do is to bring UK manufacturers together to build on the skilled workforce we have there and provide a low tax and incentivised development zone. We cannot keep treating manufacturing and engineering generally the same way as other businesses given the need for long term, long payback investments in both people and machinery.
As others noted, a JV between various partners, coordinated by the government to build electric vehicles on site may be one such solution. Modular nuclear maybe another.
Here is the press statement; https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2019/c190219beng.html Honda make no mention of Brexit
You realise they do still want to sell cars to us, right? They’re not going to stir up the risk of a boycott.
So the fact of Honda moving production back to Japan doesn’t risk a boycott, but revealing that they secretly object to Brexit and that was the real reason for moving back, does … ?
Honda were quoted after this press release as saying that the promises given to them by Mrs Thatcher that the UK would be able to provide a platform from which to export to the whole of Europe when they agreed to build a site thirty years ago, has now been broken.
Turkey is not in the EU and Japan has now brokered its own FTA with the EU. We no longer have a competitive advantage over the other sites due to Brexit
You said it already. Why the oddly worded poll just to justify the off-beat questions at the end of your editorial?
Did anyone else wonder why negotiations with the EU are taking so long? May be they are doing deals behind our backs? Oh no they have!
“Behind our backs”? Negotiations started in 2013!
I bought Peugeot cars for several years when they manufactured in The UK. When Peugeot left the UK, I stopped buying Peugeot. I have bought two Honda CRVs and a Honda Jazz in the last several years. I shall not be buying another. Vote with your wallet.
Definately, next time get a Land Ro… Oh wait…
Vauxhall Astra it is then…
I think Vauxhall is owned by Peugot …….!
Almost – it’s owned by PSA, which is the company that owns Peugeot
It seems this could be a good time to negotiate a trade deal with Japan.
Going forward, what we all want (I hope) is the most favourable trade deal possible with the EU. Lets not undermine our negotiators in achieving this goal by spurious questioning of every event to see if it has a Brexit content, even if, as in this case, the company involved has stated categorically that this is a world trade issue not a Brexit issue.
It’s a bit late for that- we decided not to be part of the Japan-EU deal.
The EU negotiators don’t need our help – they are perfectly capable of undermining themselves!
Whether or not you support Brexit, to think that Honda leaving the UK has nothing to do with Brexit seems naive. As if their departure from the UK and our departure from the single market is entirely coincidental.
There are probably many other reasons why they chose to do this, but Brexit would definitely have been one of them…
Honda has also announced it will not replace the Civic Sedan in Turkey at the end of its life time. They have not said explicitly the plant is closing, but the expectation is it will.
The message is abolition of tariffs to import car from Japan to the EU along with weak products are the cause, so I wish people would stop blaming Brexit.
It is a sad day for the UK when a high end car manufacturer such as Honda pulls out, but at least they will retract to Japan and continue the advanced development work as a direct spin off from F1. The Honda staff will be consigned to the already long dole queues and eventually the talent will be lost to stacking supermarket shelves or gone overseas.
We let the MG name go to the Chinese as badge engineering and look at the mundane cars they produce, nothing that fits the old MG advertising slogans “Safety Fast” and “Your mother wouldn’t like it”!
Bring back the MG TC ,TF’s and MGA’s 1940′ to 60’s style with modern operating gear every one would sell Worldwide. We are sick and tired of CAD cars that all look the same!
We will be selling the Crown Jewels soon.
The Brexit circus is now used to blame all UK’s woes onto but we have to fight back before we lose the plot completely and Scotland goes independent!
“We will be selling the Crown Jewels soon.”
Maybe we have ; the ones in the tower are(expensive ) fakes.
The ones in the Tower are real. The expensive fakes are on display in Westminster Abbey’s new gallery space, and you can get much closer to them (presumably because they’re fakes). They’re used in Coronation rehearsals.
Honda needs to invest in manufacturing electric cars, they can’t invest in the UK with all uncertainty of Brexit, so wrongly or rightly they have decided to leave.
None of the above; this is only partly connected with Brexit. The demand for IC cars is declining world-wide.- not only for diesels. However, since there is a strong Japan-EU trade deal in place , which we have decided not to be part of, there is no longer any need for Japanese manufacturers to build in the UK.
Similarly , Ellesmere Port will be the next to go, because as with JLR there are too many models in the PSA stable. There is no need to build both Opel and Vauxhall models in parallel and there are so many common floorpans now that the market is overfilled. The same happened wih BMC and BL with badge- engineering between Wolseley, Riley, MG, Austin and Morris which led to the collapse of the Company. Ford did the opposite and concentrated on a narrow body range with different trim levels , but we don’t build Ford cars here any more.
Unfortunate for the people of Swindon, and like with all large factory closures, there is sympathy and a grim outlook. When Honda came here, the environment was different, we had subsidies to offer. Now the Govt. is apparently broke.But, business is business and for profit otherwise they wouldn’t have set up in the first place.
We should expect further closures and the Govt. isn’t helping by dithering over a second vote. It is also too late to ‘start discussions ‘ on trade deals with ‘the rest of the World’ whoever they are ( Faeroes, Mauritania, Iceland …?) as it takes years to get to an equitable agreement.
The question that the Engineering community and the Government should be asking is ‘where are the engineers who used to take the responsibility at the top of industry? Why are we reliant on boards that are far away, and subject to decisions made long ago? Why not here in the UK, and now?,
In other words, why is the UK operating at the sciency, and the screwdrivery ends of these businesses? Why don’t, or can’t, our Engineers step up to the mark and run Engineering businesses?
Personally, I can see a gaping hole in the mobility market, similar in scale and impact that previous UK engineers filled, with their canals,/turnpikes/railway projects … creating whole industries and enormous wealth on an international basis incidentally, without having to lobby for government financial input such as HS2 among other duds. However, it is difficult to identify a forum where such engineering projects ought to be mooted. Any suggestions?
When were engineers at the top of the British engineering industry?
Just look at the list of Engineers who became very senior members of the Railway Company Boards in the Victorian era! Since the accountants took over there has been a long decline in British Industry.
While Honda (and every other multinnational in a similar position) avers Brexit is not relevant this is misleading. Brexit is part of the global economy evolution and is a factor in their decisions, even if not the sole one. We already have advantageous trade deals with one major economic bloc, which we are throwing away, and yet to achieve similar or better with anyone else. Trade deals require a compromise by both parties, and whatever we do we will still have to sell EU standard goods to Europe as we do now, but in due course with tariffs and extensive bureaucracy, we still have to sell our goods to America, China, India, and the rest of the world to whatever standards they insist on, and vice-versa. All that is now happening is that civil servants and negotiators will have even more job security while they carry out these negotiators and HMRC and Border staff will have to be enhanced to cope with the additional work load. Some people will profit from the change while the rest of the country doesn’t.
As with this withdrawal and others it would seem obvious that ‘Johnny Foreigner’ only sees the UK as a source of cheap labour, free subsidies and a toehold into the EU. We don’t appear to offer any special skill sets apart from boosting the bottom line.
Maybe it’s time to address our engineering skills and our image overseas, if we want a future.
UK labour isn’t that cheap.
Nicely put.
That’s because living here is not cheap.
Suggesting the government steps in is foolish as they’ll just state “it’s a commercial issue” (as the Tories did over Moorside) Stating it’s due to BREXIT ignores the obvious,there have been several announcements that the sale of ICE vehicles is declining rapidly,& also that no new ICE vehicles will be sold after 20…(can’t recall if it was 20-30-40-50)in the UK. The media will blame it on BREXIT but that doesn’t make it true,the truth is much more likely to be car manufacturers have realised there won’t be ANY market for their products in the UK in just a few years. We used to have huge textile producers in the UK,they mostly departed decades ago & those that remained have ceased trading in recent years.
I’ve been driving Honda for 20+ years. This will be my last for the foreseeable future.
Honda dealers keep trying to buy my car and sell me a Diesel SUV. I want a Hybrid Saloon like they sell everywhere except Europe. The Dealer’s answer? “We get a lot of people saying that.”
This is not a Honda Japan issue, but a Honda Swindon problem, namely Sales and Marketing.
Anyway, if, historically, UK Governments had supported Manufacturing and not let it all be sold off to foreign owners, maybe manufacturing would actually be more UK oriented, instead of taking it back home as soon as things get a bit difficult (think Ford, Peugeot, GM, Land Rover, etc, etc.)
Reading this interview with a Honda senior VP, it seems not only is this not because of Brexit, but the UK could not have done anything to prevent it:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/honda-boss-swindon-closure-is-not-brexit-related/
The industry is declining as a whole. Cars are becoming fairly generic white goods, people living in cities don’t want them, family size is smaller, ICE technologies has one foot in the grave. Soon cars will be hired as much as they are owned.
What the UK government needs to do at a strategic level is determine a radical rethink about future industrial opportunities, not try to hang on to the vestiges of a declining industry.
Industry isn’t declining, it’s evolving. People still want cars, just cheaper ones, they still want kitchen white goods etc. This country for too long thought what it made was the best in the world and for a time it was. but like with the Japanese bikes of the 70’s giving the British bike industry a bloody nose from which we are only just recovering (current Triumphs are fantastic). So our manufacturing/engineering sector has not only to catch up with what the people want, but, they have to produce what they people want before they know they want it.
Two points: The EU/Japan trade deal grants 0% tariff access, effectively Japan becomes ‘honorary’ members of the EU at least as cars are concerned so (from their point of view) they might as well manufacture there as here. Did the EU negotiators back in 2013/pre-referendum think or care about the consequences to the EU member (Britain) where Honda manufacture and would things be different if Honda had been based in France or Germany (more protectionist approach, retaining tariffs).
Second if Japan can strike this deal with the EU, why not the UK I don’t imagine Japan have had to accept free movement of EU citizens to live and work in Japan as a precondition ~ or any mention of cake …
British negotiators were involved up to (presumably) 2016 and the talks concluded in 2017.
The UK was offered a free trade deal in March 2018. No. 10 rejected it.
Well the EU/Japan deal covers goods AND services, gets rid of tariff and non-tariff barriers, allows some divergence of environmental, employment regulations as long as they’re headed in the same direction … doesn’t seem too bad does it? http://ec.europa.eu/trade/images/infographics/eu-japan-infographic.jpg
There are some very naive people if they do not think that the uncertainty of Brexit did not have an influence on the Honda decision, they had already warned that this was a concern.
I agree the EU – Japan trade deal was the final straw.
The Netherlands are already boasting about the number of British companies relocating to the Holland.
This is now a good opportunity to nationalise the plant and bring automotive expertise back into UK hands after Honda have left. Industrial planners should be looking at what capabilities the factory has and plan now to introduce a new domestically produced vehicle.
Allegros?
More like Larghissimo….
I seem to recall that Honda was planning to manufacture Hydrogen powered cars. Why would they choose to make cars in future, in a country with no Hydrogen infrastructure ?
Surely the real problem is not having a British owned mass producing car manufacturer – the foreign owned companies do not have the same commitment to this country that a British owned company would have.
Do you mean a British owned company like Dyson that is relocating to Singapore to be near the Chinese market?
Great selection of comments on both Honda and the UK policy: this topic has really got involvement and shows the quality of the articles and readership.
Was the UK’s decision to ban diesel cars a factor?
Apart from France, few other countries are following this self-harm policy.
Diesel car sales have declined across Europe, regardless of whether governments have announced phase-outs.
I note that Honda and Hitachi Automotive Systems signed an MOU 2 YEARS AGO in Feb 2017 to establish a Joint Venture for development, manufactures and sales of motors for electric vehicles. I also note the UK govt’s refusal to talk to Horizon Nuclear Power (in effect HitchiGE) about any further UK govt ‘investment’ in that nuclear power station project. In Japan, behind the scenes businesses are organised into huge alliances/combines that align their business interests and act in accordance with all their interests. So I don’t think the Brexit issue is something that would necessarily have made this decision change.
I also note (again) that the country effectively printed £1.5TRILLION to bail out the failed banks in 2008, but we cannot seem to find the money to support engineering businesses that create genuine wealth (not just inflated electronic value) for the UK and its citizens.
I also note that yet again, manufacturing in the UK is ‘sold down the river’ on the altar of UK foreign policy which includes all sorts of deals, agreements and understandings that protect and assure the continuity of the UK finance sector overseas. We all know that Brexit negotiations are apparently addressing the free movement of labour…. (and apparently, coincidentally, the CIPD reports that wages have started to rise as many who travelled here from the EU or elsewhere depart), perhaps due to the Brexit vote. However, what are the negotiations addressing on the free movement of capital? In my opinion, this has been the real blight on UK manufacturing which has thus allowed the relatively cheap transfer of jobs/investment overseas, whilst facilitating the massive over expansion of the London based casino financial operations (to the detriment of the rest of the UK, by and large).
Just saying…..
Its just business, we should have no hard feelings. The idea of moving production to Japan will see the emergence of a far higher level of automation than before for Honda – so much so that the EU will eventually rue their decision to allow Japan tariff free exports of their cars into the single market as the Japanese will inevitably steal a march on European based manufacturers in the race for cost leadership.
The Japanese are attempting to manufacture cars in Japan using high levels of automation than ever before- the aim being to make a car at Thai costs yet with Japanese quality standards.
Within 4-5 years they will be able to do it. With the slim margins that auto makers enjoy and the emergence of disruptive players in the market the Japanese are more or less compelled to follow this strategy.
It appears that Honda will concentrate on production of a small EV which will be a highly affordable £30K (yes that is sarcasm) and do 124 miles on a charge.
Honda probably intends to import these into the UK and the E.U.
Battery EV’s are an engineering abhorrence and an ecological one as well. Lets hope lots of affluent Liberals buy these things just to have them rendered worthless when the Hydrogen storage and distribution problem is resolved. The car market is shrinking rapidly all over the world – it has nothing to do with Brexit.
Britain destroyed its car industry with rogue designers, poor build quality and strikes. We gave away the iconic MG name to the Chinese who attach the badge to tin cars that will be future scrap.
Re-manufacture the MG’s of yesteryear and join Morgan sports cars to have Britain be Great again!
The Swindon Honda site could be the MG production site, perhaps Mr. Trump will make an investment so we can export real sports cars to America again,,,,minus rubber bumpers!!
Will we sell the Crown Jewels to Melania Trump next?
Brexit is a farce and will cost billions to exit, never have so few, voted by the not so many (52%), failed to perform in Parliament, this is NOT our finest hour on the World stage and we are the laughing stock and an oddity.
Time to invest in Scotland when they vote to join the EC and have billions of Euros pumped in just like Ireland did. They will also build a wall, the foundations are already from Hadrian’s Roman times.