Editor
In the never-ending debate over engineering skills, the need to inspire the next generation generally gets the most attention.
But while no-one would argue against the critical importance of ensuring a pipeline of future engineers, the need to recruit experienced engineers right now is arguably a far more pressing concern for UK industry.
It’s an issue that affects every level of industry, from the small and medium-sized firms at the heart of the UK’s engineering supply chain, right through to more prominent engineering employers like Dyson and Jaguar Land Rover.
Last year, the business department’s chief scientific advisor, Prof John Perkins, warned that a lack of engineering skills could “constrain” the UK’s economic recovery. And many experts have claimed that the UK will have to rely on overseas talent to meet skills shortages in the next decade.
Are there enough face to face opportunities, such as recruitment fairs, to meet engineering employers?
It’s certainly a worrying problem, but while industry is buzzing with initiatives designed to enthuse young people, there appear to be precious few solutions aimed at tapping into the expertise of those already in industry.
With this in mind, we’d be interested in hearing your views and suggestions on how industry can attract the experienced engineers so critical to ensuring UK industry remains competitive.
Do you feel that your skills are valued? And does industry in general do a good job of communicating its skills requirements? Are there, for instance, enough face to face opportunities – like recruitment fairs – to meet employers beyond your own sector? And are there enough pathways for you to develop your career and move up in the industry?
Your views will help shape our coverage of this critically important issue, so please do let us know what you think in the comments box at the bottom of this article.
Please also take a moment to vote in the poll on the right hand side of this page.
Uk is playing in a global market, but refuses to offer a competitive salary to experienced engineers. With a very high cost of living, it offers low wages for engineers in UK As long as the companies refuses to face this, there is not much to do about it.
The Engineering Council introduced the Neighbourhood Engineering Scheme in the 1980’s for professional Engineers to be linked to schools to support the teaching of STEM subjects in schools, make STEM subjects fun and relevant and introduce children to Engioneering as a career.
In 1997 Lord Sainsbury hijacked theb acheme as Science and Engineering Ambassadors (SEA’S) administered by local SetNets.
I was a Neigbourhood Engineer from 1986 and then a Science and Engineering Ambassador from 1997 until 2010 and starting my current job.
It is very rewarding being an SEA as well as being deemed relevant for CPD.
I am trained electronic engineering technician that worked my way up into engineering based on my working knowledge and skills, without a degree back in the 1990’s. I got laid off in 2004, since then every job I apply for require a degree. With all due respect for education a degree is not all when come to technology development knowledge is king.
My recommendation for employers looking for knowledgeable and skilled engineers, start by finding experience people and retrain them and mix them with new young talent, and promote knowledge and skills sharing. Technology is a culture, it is not a model.
No skilled Engineers for £30k.
Try offering £60k.
Recruitment fairs will only attract existing engineers, we need to inspire young people to become engineers so I think they either need to send the recruitment fairs in to schools or to have more regional fairs where schools are invited to send their pupils even if it means a day out of school ! or even bus pupils to the larger fairs perhaps at the age when they are deciding their learning options and are then able to select the subjects which may help an engineering career.
There must be thousands of skilled, experienced engineers like myself, over 50, and unable to find work because of the employers’ overly prescriptive requirements. In reality, I think they would rather import fresh young graduates from overseas because they are cheaper, but I doubt thay have factored in all the costly mistakes the young engineers make, which we have already made and learned from. We should emulate the Australians, and restrict visas to foreign engineers until we have no indigenous engineers still looking for work.
Human Resources departments are the problem, they haven’t got the skills to recognize quality when they see it
The career path is still very much away from Engineering and into management if you want to move on to a higher pay grade. This will effectively remove the skilled Engineers from what they are good at and move them into something where they might not be the best. If you want experienced Engineers, you have to pay for that experience.
I would totally endorse Philip Hodgson’s comments. I know a lot of engineers over 50 who can not find work. Engineering covers a very broad range of subjects and skills. Unless you are a 99% match for any role advertised you are deemed “not to meet the requirement we are looking for” and if you are over 50 don’t even bother to apply.
Like many other professional engineers of my generation I was booted out of engineering when Maggie Thatcher decided to move the country away from manufacturing. Can’t blame her too much really. The unions were totally out of hand and someone had to say enough is enough.
I could quite happily go back in to design engineering if someone should offer me a job. I have a good CAD knowledge , and I still invent. But who would take on a 63 year old.
Hey Ho
This is a subject I’m very passionate about.
My company has trained up and paid several young guys to go through college and has always found it tough attracting young talent into the trade.
Sadly any skilled CNC Precision Engineer (in a practical sense not a guy who sits behind a desk all day) who is responsible for programming, fixturring setting up and proving out a new machined part is much in demand and a hard-to-find resource.
That skilled person, with 10 years hands on experience and A £400,000 5 axis machine can earn a company £30-60 per hour or say £450/day. He gets paid £13-£17 per hour.
A self employed or employed consultant, be it business improvement, tax, quality or whatever with his £400/month car, £600 laptop, 10 years hands on experience seems to think its OK to charge £500-£1000 a day.
So is it any wonder that even top-end precision engineering is not an attractive trade to be involved in ?
Recruitment fairs tend to be orgainised by local newspapers and exhibition companies and charge potential employers stupid sums to have a stand, thus eliminating most SME’s from participating
And don’t get me started on recruitment agencies, they think its OK to charge £1000’s for doing, (relatively speaking) nothing apart from send me CV’s of guys they have just pulled off websites such as CV Library.
The trouble we find is that apart from getting people interested in the first place, universities and colleges don’t teach what my industry needs.
Then you get some intellectual guy come on here and say rubbish like “its not universities responsibility to do that” or make some other insulting and derogatory comment implying its industry’s responsibility.
The real fact of the matter is that its higher education’s responsibility to equip their students with skills and knowledge they need to get jobs and earn a living.
If industry wants a degree level standard for 5 axis machine programming, then higher education, with government funding should offer such a pathway.
Instead, higher education concentrates on theoretical stuff, which may be useful if you want to understand the thermodynamics of a cooling system, but if you actually want to make one, you are left totally clueless and end up drawing something (if they actually have been taught how to do that right) that either cant be made or costs several times what it could cost, if the person drawing it had been taught any practical skills.
Quite frankly, and i hate to say it, but India do a better job at training engineers with Hi-Tec skills that match their countries growing requirement than the UK manages.
As I have said before. I left the UK 30+ years ago and have not worked there since.
Why? Very simple, I earn twice the salary, pay lower taxes, and pay half the costs for better quality goods and services.
I am also treated as a professional, something that never happened in the UK. Tell somebody you are an engineer, and you get “Oh, you mean like you repair cars?”. That was one of the kinder comments.
There needs to be a complete revamping of the status of engineers in the UK, along the lines of European countries and N.America. I’ve waited for 40+ years and seen no changes, so I’m not going to hold my breath.
If companies really do want skilled engineers with experience then they must stop advertising for a degree as a minimum qualification. They should be prepared to re-train experienced engineers and have continuous training programs. From my experience a time served and experienced engineer will be more reliable than a new degree qualifiied engineer
I am 47 years old. I find engineering, design, technology of all sorts very interesting and would be very interested in getting into working in the field. I should have been steered that way coming out of school but for some reason I wasnt. What can be done about that now? I am sure I am not the only person out here who would like to change direction and get into a hands on engineering role but as I am not a 19 year old with an apprenticeship driven pathway what can be done?
Any ideas anyone?
Cheers.
Dave.
I am an Engineering Technician, member of IET, 30+ years experience as a Toolmaker mainly in the aviation industry. I also have a degree ( though not in engineering). You would have thought that with this knowledge and background I would at least be earning the national average wage, however I do not even get close to it. This is the problem with engineering at this time, it is not valued highly enough by employers. And as such it is not an attractive career path. Unless you are very talented, or very lucky, you will not get rich in engineering ( or even comfortable).
Like many above have implied or said direct – Money Talks.
In the UK’s service biased economy intelligent, engineering orientated folk can migrate to financial services or management accounting and double their salaries – can mere passion for engineering compete with that? I doubt it.
No amount of STEM initiatives will convince students to get into into hock to the tune of 40k to study a ‘hard’ subject for what is relatively a pitiful reward.
Something much more fundamental must change (trade barriers, salary caps on financial jobs etc.., visa restrictions) before the supply and demand curve alters in our favour..
Their are hundred of skilled engineers/technicians in this country looking for jobs.
Trouble is they are too experienced as many are over 50 and without degrees.
Our generation worked with our hands and served that old fashion thing called an indentured apprenticeship.
Also as said in many of the other posts, Engineers in this country are treated like second class citizens, recognise them for what they are and pay them the correct salary and you will stop the skills drain to other countries.
I have been in electronics engineering for close on 50 years and have been lucky to be employed for most of that time. If I was looking for a career choice today possibly stretching out for the next 45 years; I probably would not choose engineering. We have seen the virtual demise of British manufacturing as it can’t compete with Asia. A supplier the other day said that 25% of electronic component sales in the UK go to the car industry. That gives you a rough idea how much engineering is going on now in the UK . Could it be the shortage of engineers is due to 1) people getting out of engineering to teach etc. and 2) youngsters not seeing engineering as a career path that will last them to a pensionable age?
I am a 73 year old Electronic Engineer still working full time, why?
Because people keep knocking on our door and asking us to design Electrical/Electronic parts. They can find nobody else to help with the required breadth of knowledge, built up from a Technical School education and a lifetime of experience. The technical schools should never have been closed, curse the Socialist Education idea that everybody is equal and is entitled to the same AVERAGE education. I would not mind but none of the present crop of engineers seem to be unable to grasp the whole concept, they have no knowledge of basics and they have no knowledge of scale. Thank god for immigration, look at Graphine,.
Sorry but I too am very depressed about the state of UK Engineering education.
Bring back the 1947 Education Act
In a market demand is reflected in the price. As the price continues to go down demand can’t be that high as claimed.
Eastern Germany put the emphasis on a well rounded technical education. All children went to a Polytechnical School for 10 years. Starting age 6. Grade 1-3 included gardening, grade 4 started with the workshop, wood, plastics, metal. Starting grade 7, practical work under supervision in the local factory or farm.
After grade 8 some switched to highschool for a further 4 years to prepare for university. The majority finished school after grade 10 to start an apprenticeship.
Aged 18 every youth either had completed highschool or apprenticeship.
A big problem are hr departments and computer evaluation of applications. If engineers would read applications, they’d be able to see what an applicant can do. Since hr people are unskilled business people, they reject anyone who doesn’t fit the profile 100%.
I agree with many of the comments above, in the UK engineering pay scales are way too low and in many firms the engineers are not involved enough in the strategic management of the firm. So if you want a poorly paid job, where you will not be in charge of your own destiny – choose engineering. Until this changes we will have more bankers, accountants and lawyers than engineers.
Always focus on developing talent within the business, home spun engineers are usually the best and most loyal. Maintain training budgets as companies who train at all levels are the most attractive to work for, keep a constant look out for new talent to join you. Be open minded on background and demographics.
Desperate necessity seems to have forced the current crop of failed politicians belatedly to recognise that being able to make real things and sell them to real people is a faculty somewhat higher than being able to invent funny money and then pay yourself a lot of it.
Trouble is… none of them knows how to do the job themselves, so expecting them to be able to fix the rest of the country is as much cloud cuckoo land as a Bank of England economic forecast.
The two biggest problems have already been identified above: (1) Low salaries and (2) Technically ignorant HR people. The solution to both problems is for experienced engineers now to start their own businesses, and the best book I know about that is “Small Business Guide” by Sara Williams. I advise any engineer who isn’t yet quite brain dead to get hold of a copy and read it.
And then when you’ve made your own fortune, you can go into politics and teach them how to run the country!
It’s just an observation but in the modern world we live in there exists a huge buffer between the Company who is searching for a suitable engineer and the Engineer who is looking for a job with a suitable company – the Recruitment Agency.
My recent experiences tell me that very few of these recruitment agents have a clue what an engineer is and that they lack the necessary knowledge to identify suitable engineering candidates.
At the risk of upsetting the whole apple cart (not that I give a damn) I would be more than happy to see a return to the older methodology whereby the company’s own HR Department performed this role.
Engineers move around a lot. They are seeking new opportunities and it is often the only way to drive a pay rise. This still doesn’t address then issue that the UK pays a lot less than other countries. It forces engineers to become managers just to earn a reasonable salary. We seem to lose a lot of engineers to other sectors or abroad. I am planning a move abroad. I’m looking forward to it. A lot of very nice interesting opportunities out there and they pay the appropriate salary. Ultimately engineering is not seen as a ‘sexy’ subject and it suffers with poor salary.
And there is another issue: anybody who can tell a hammer from a screwdriver calls himself an engineer.
In the 1970’s when working in an advanced aero-engineering management job we decided to recruit another 40% of our stress engineer staff to meet a surge in work. By the time suitable experienced recruits were on board we lost experienced people more than we gained; so we asked people how we could cope with existing staff numbers; pay rates went up; status within company was enhanced (recognition by non stress managers that SE’s were professionals, etc). Then we introduced collaboratively, new technologies to support the process of doing our job. This later led me to realise the way to deploy technology was to map the process of ‘doing the job’ across interacting departments then devising computer-based solutions that enabled cross-functional tasks to be speeded up. This I call MWD… think of how technology enables you to achieve something, that takes a month today, in a week next year, and a day the year after. It is not worth doing technology for marginal gains… did we do it in this firm and others I worked for after… of course. Then departments necome glamorous and attract recruits and are great training grounds for experieced and non-experienced. It actually works!
This is only one aspect but I feel engineers are not good marketers of the great things they do. My children were turned of engineering by me working long hours and always seeming to study. I had to start telling them I was lucky because it is my hobby and I get paid to do it (my hobby).
I believe we need to learn how to sell what we honestly do and understand how it relates to them. I was one of the people who thought marketing was for people who couldn’t go any further with engineering. I finally learnt I needed to improve things by helping with marketing.
I came from the wrong neighbourhood to know what engineering was. I did go to a school well out of the neighbourhood and learnt from 3 teachers, who had been engineers, what I could become if I was an engineer. I think engineers can make brilliant teachers.
British culture does NoT recognise Engineering ( in all it’s professional forms ) as a ‘true profession’ up there with Medical Doctors etc. I worked with a Japanese company and their culture stated clearly that ‘Engineers are the only people who can make things’. The Germans are not far behind this mentality. Consequently their salaries are good and respect goes with that. Other posts reflect this.
Ahh, my New Year resolution didn’t last long; I’d vowed not to respond to the complete rubbish so frequently printed in these pages about low status, pay, etc, etc, by people who clearly just want to talk the profession down, and without whom Engineering would be much better off, as well as the winges about a fantasy move away from manufacturing in the 80’s, when output and efficiency actually increased, while employment admittedly fell. Unlike Labour’s record of reducing output, employment and efficiency.
A big problem for companies these days is the very poor standards coming out of real universities- let alone all the ‘new’ made up ones. At graduate interviews I used to ask a range of very simple questions from things like first year strength of design; things that we had to know and keep in our minds to do a meaningful final year project. Now, even if strength of design is taught at all (at some universities simply a book of formulae is given), the modular system of “education” which has polluted our institutions from top to bottom permits the material to be completely forgotten after whatever form of assessment if undertaken. The result is that there is a lack of real knowledge and no understanding at all of the relationships between the various knowledge streams.
Add to that the zero level of practical skills now taught, and I offer for discussion the idea that about 80% of Engineering degrees should not be permitted to be so called, and most Universities’ charters should be revoked until a decent standard is achieved.
Ask average Joe on the street what an engineer does. I think we all know the answer.. Ask the same question in Germany, Switzerland, Japan, etc. etc.. you will get remarkably different answers.
The next issue is pay. It is plain shocking in the UK. So many of my collegues have left to go abroad. I am being offered really good jobs with decent pay in Switzerland and I am seriously thinking of taking it. Why struggle in the UK when you can earn at least twice as much elsewhere.
I see on the news that the MOD are considering raising salaries for engineers as they are losing a lot of them. Industry needs to be competitive on a global scale.
A recent survey last year found that over 50% of engineers are considering leaving the UK. This is a very big increase.
For a parallel, in programming jobs HR departments are appalling because it’s non-programmers trying to sift through mountains of rather optimistically written CVs and they don’t know how to see the wood for the trees either. They look for boxes to tick – claimed programming language skills and so on and can’t really answer the only question that matters: is this person someone who cares what they do, does it intelligently and learns?
So we in the programming world get to work with lots of idiots, get led by idiots and so on. There is simply enough money in the industry to make up for a lot of the inefficiency.
I think in the US, silicon valley has allowed recycling and concentration of the ‘population’ of programmers and managers to the extent that some of the learning has stuck and now they have some companies that are managed moderately well and employ moderately good people.
Google make you go through a hellish interview with lots of other programmers and I failed that the one time I tried it. I got pretty far because I am able but even then I wasn’t quite good enough. I respect this – it’s the best defensive system I’ve ever seen.
Poor technical people are a cancer that ruin everything especially as they tend to concentrate on politics instead of their work and then they advance.
My guess is that like software, you’re going to have to start up your own companies with some sort of innovative product and make a lot of money off it – then you can hire well and pay well because you yourself know it’s the right thing to do.
And another thing.
Will people stop misquoting a survey which has been deliberately taken out of context. 50% of Engineers did NOT respond to a survey to say they were considering leaving the UK. They said in response to questions carefully worded to get a desired response that there were circumstances under which they would consider leaving the UK. If you don’t see a big difference between those two stances, then you lack the intellect to call yourself an Engineer.
Please stop repeating lies, and to “The Engineer”, please stop printing them..
Personally this Engineer does plan to leave the UK if a Labour Government is elected in 2015, as I don’t want to the the one left to pull the “flush” handle on the UK after they conclude their programme of destroying this country.
Half Of British engineers considering leaving the UK
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/05/half-of-british-engineers-considering-leaving-the-uk_n_1942552.html
Just over 30% of male and 50% of female engineers have left the sector within 3 years of graduation.
http://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/daily-news027/uk-forecasting-shortage-engineers
So if there is a such shortage of engineers – why does one of the top engineering recruitment agencies have the following message on its website at the end of all the job vacancies?
“Due to the high number of applications we receive for each vacancy we will only be contacting candidates that will be contacted for interview”
In response to the editor’s comment below
Editor’s comments | 26 Feb 2014 5:01 pm
Just to steer the conversation in a more constructive direction, what would help more skilled engineers to move jobs and further their career? What is stopping people from moving upwards and onwards to better projects and better opportunities?
We as engineers do not all want to move up the ladder to management or programme roles as they are chasing roles and you don’t “do”.
A majority of engineers, I would guess, enjoy their work as it offers them challenges related to their profession/qualification/interest. They may also use this outside of work too.
Colouring in bar charts and pestering engineers for timing/costs etc isn’t a job an “engineer” would want to take on.
Also, Mr Editor, what do you propose these engineers move onwards and upwards to do? Your comments gratefully received.
In reply to the editor.
Engineers cannot solve this problem. What is needed most is some common sense and honesty by those doing the recruiting. Firms need to write down what they ACTUALLY NEED and then recruit.
What often happens is they assume they need a graduate with a 2(i) or 1st. In doing so they rule out the majority of 45 – 65 year olds as only 25% -30% of graduates achieved this grade years ago.
New graduates are ruled out because they have no experience and recent graduates are ruled out because they don’t have enough experience. Experienced engineers are ruled out because they don’t have experience in the right industry. Stupidity wins over common sense and we have a perceived skills shortage.
Politicians and the great and good are ignorant of the above facts and think the answer is to encourage more youngsters, especially females, to consider a career as an engineer. Others who are even more deluded think that overseas engineers are a solution and they are happy to ignore the fact that there are mature engineers and young graduate engineers living in the UK who are unemployed and need a chance.
The harsh truth is that industry wants skilled engineers but they don’t want to use some common sense and make the necessary changes to allow this to happen. So many of the comments here illustrate the problems and issues but these will be largely ignored by recruiters who want quick fixes based on short term thinking – their failure to recruit is likely to continue until they change.
I’ve been with my current employer for over 15 years in a manual/technician role. I completed a company sponsored engineering degree 10 years ago. After 30+ failed attempts to secure an internal engineering role, my career is at a dead-end. My employer, like many others, seem to focus mainly on graduates and contractors to fill engineering vacancies. Instead of complaining about shortages of engineers, why don’t companies seriously consider their own experienced and skilled employees to fill skills gaps?
Clearly from the posts above this is a very emotional topic and one, as engineers, we rightly get very passionate about. How can we turn that passion into action is my question and its not about focussing on pay.
With respect to engaging with the next generation we need to be building the Engineering brand in the UK. Use resources like STEMnet to help you engage with loacl education and get yourself in the driving seat for change.
UK Skills event is a major driver for showcasing skills to young people but industry are very slow in supporting the event. Get along to this years event and see it in action.
Obviously it will take time to get the next generation to see Engineering in a new light but it is happening!!!
For the immediate challenge’s we face then we can be taking action now.
Grow your own people internally, look for attitude and not just skills – you can train skills using your existing talent or via external providers. This brings reward for both parties. Dont assume the only reward is pay – showing you care about the development of your people and provide opportunities for growth are just as strong. If you can demonstrate this to your workforce they will be more engaged and more secure. They will also question that better paying offer if it comes along.
In summary, dont waste your time waiting for the perfect fit engineer to come along. Skills shortages in the UK mean we need to start shaping our square pegs in to round holes. Companies that do will build a more secure and engaged team for the future.
Fully agree Neil. Pay is one aspect. Training is very important and does help retain employees.
We have recruited a superb Engineering team. It wasn’t easy and the recruitment process was just as taxing as any Engineering task.
The problem, as many have stated, is twofold:
Traditional recruitment often involves HR departments or recruitment agents. Both of these groups know nothing about what makes a competent Engineer, baseing their filtering on tick-box methodology because they do not have the knowledge to do it any other way.
We did not do this. We have always reviewed every applicant directly. It took time and effort. At interview we look beyond the CV and take a great interest in the non-work activities of applicants as this usually tells us much more about skills and motivations that the “official” bit. We also place no value on whether or not an applicant has professional accreditation as the instutions have also become a little tick-box orientated and many chartered engineers are little more than programme managers with degrees(although we do encourage staff to pursue this).
We also use a second interview approach where a candidate meets every current staff member. Any concern from any member of staff is taken very seriously and will likely result in the job not being offered.
This approach has led to an age range of capable people (not “resources”) from 20s to 70s and a really close-bonded group with no status division between workshop, design and analysis.
We have looked at hundreds of CVs and interviewed a very large number of people to acquire 35 staff. The majority of applicants were not suitable due to an obvious lack of imagination and/or intellectual curiosity, it had very little to do with educational achievement as the really good people are all self-improvers and those same people, if they had flunked school entirely, would have corrected this as it is in their instincts to do so. As a result our people range from early school leavers through to PhDs and mutual respect exists since people are judged on their merits and abilities only which is how they got here in the first place.
Good people can be found but it takes real dedication and effort on the part of the employer to find them. Job advertisments should also be written in the expectation of being surprised. Asking for “Qualified to…. with … years of experience” etc etc is unimaginative and will give a lacklustre result.
We also try to pay properly to keep them.
I am a 53 year old time served sheet metal worker running a relatively successful business with 7 employees 1 of whom was 66 today another is wheelchair bound, one is lazy and another has an occasional attitude problem. My greatest achievement is moulding this motley crew and I include myself in this into an effective unit. We are about to move premises and will be looking to attract and train those 20 to 25 year olds that have fallen through the net during this prolonged recession. We will also look for other skilled workers across a wide range of ages who are happy to blend into our company. There are great times ahead for manufacturers so just be positive and try to join small growing businesses. Also can’t believe Margaret Thatcher still shoulders the blame for our current woes!
If engineering is to appeal to the young they need to see the an industry with many inlettsand opertuities the industry needs to be touted on television aim the same way the food and music industry is don’t tel it to them sell it to them
Ther are some brilliant points here but who else apart from us is leaking note… The country needs a chief engineer to sell our countries capabilities to the world markets let alone theEU
“Applicants were not suitable due to an obvious lack of imagination and/or intellectual curiosity . . the really good people are all self-improvers and, if they had flunked school entirely, would have corrected this as it is in their instincts to do so.”
I can relate to those pearls of wisdom. Leaving school with ‘O’ Levels in technical drawing and metalwork, I spent two years in a trade toolroom and five in a design office, until being made redundant. Then I spent twenty years in a mundane job on better pay for shorter hours, earning a decent pension.
Whenever I present my designs (to the minority of engineers who have the curiosity to want to see them), I do my best to persuade people to “judge the invention, not the inventor”, because experience has taught me they’re all conditioned to dismiss anyone who lacks any “professional accreditation” or an entrepreneurial track record.
It never works, but the big, insurmountable obstacle is the attitude problem of – “Put your money where your mouth is.” There’s no way round that, when you don’t have enough, and investors run a mile. (as they always do)
I recall a Japanese industrialist saying – “We only need one visionary/creative for every 1,000 designers.” – Ouch!
Building on what I said earlier about teaching skills that employers actually want.
http://bit.ly/1hFafCt
This is an excellent example of what an American High School has managed to achieve, as well as something the UK should be looking at.
The poll gives one of the options as employment fairs being useful for graduates but not for experienced engineers.
I would add to this and say that I have never found employment fairs particularly useful as a graduate either. In my experience all of the fairs are entirely dominated by large companies, the type of companies who most people already know of at the time they start looking for jobs. Most of the time I found that all I’ve ever got out of visiting employment fairs has been a sales pitch and a piece of paper with a link to the online application form.
To all the experience engineers who struggle to find jobs, I am sure the jobs are there, they just need to be found. SMEs would be eager to take on people of the calibre, but the positions are poorly advertised, and the employers do not always know exactly what they are looking for.
I do’nt think that employment agencies are not to blame.
I am an experienced 52 year old, Chemist and Chemical Engineer. I see many jobs advertised in the UK but as many people have already commented, the job descriptions and experience requirements are so exact and exhaustive that it seems like they will never find a fit.
I blame the employers and their HR departments for outsourcing a role that is critical to the future success of their own company.
Employment agencies are simply your tools to use; they do not really know what or who you need. No wonder they are using tick the box type selection processes.
The department managers who need to attract more people are not doing enough. They need to write less complicated job adverts and specify some limited key skills and experience for the agency to screen, and then get on with the other important part of their job of finding the correct attitude and personality to fit their requirements.
I would also say that employers should engage a single agency to maintain the focus. Internet job boards are really not the place experienced professionals want to spend hours wading through.
There are 1000’s of highly qualified engineers late 40’s to 50’s who are more than capable of filling the skills gap. However there are ignored by HR or recruitment agencies are they are perceived as difficult to sell to their clients.
So whilst the UK is held back, this highly skilled untapped resource is ignored.
Why I wonder?
Especially as we are all living longer and the retirement age has been scrapped.
Pure prejudice, ignorance and ageism.
I joined this multi-national manufacturing company 37 years ago as a Graduate Engineering Trainee and am now a Senior Design Engineer (no complaints – is a wonderful job). A fellow graduate joined as a Trainee Accountant on the same day. He is now Vice President of Accounting AND ENGINEERING (!!). What does that tell you? (apart from maybe that our Engineers here prefer to Engineer than manage!)
I am currently studying HNC mechanical engineering with a view to become a design engineer.
I have to say the closer I am to completing the course the more interest I have had from recruitment agents. The main issue in the both interviews I have had in the last 2 months are the company wanting experience I have not listed on my CV!
Makes me wonder if the recruitment agent or employer even read it before I walked in!
@Graham Porter, above:
You are wondering if the recruitment agent had actually read your CV? Story from about 25 years ago. I was interested in moving on and, having believed the hype about “professional” recruiters, approached a couple. My home territiry is aerospace and I was looking for something linking aerodynamics and structures. At the time I had spent six years running wind tunnel evaluations of aircraft and missiles, had an MSc in Aircraft Design from Cranfield and had just spent 18months working on a rotary winged UAV.
The recruitment agency told me that I did not have appropriate experience or qualifications for the aerospace industry….. Lesson learned for the rest of my career? They are utterly useless and I now take great pleasure in telling them so whenever they attempt to foist a totally unsuitable candidate on my company. The best advice that I can offer you is to write directly to the Chief Engineer or equivalent at your chosen potential employer and put some effort into the letter. Show that you understand the business of the company and point out anything at all that will single you out for consideration, including leisure activities.
One of our best hires was a chap well past the first flush of youth (mid 60s) who interviewed really badly until I asked him about any spare time engineering acitvities. He had designed successful racing boat engines, developed his own motorbike and raced it, was designing an innovative two stroke as well. None of this on his CV! Tell the full story with evidence, not just the “official” bit. It has worked for me in the past and it makes the selection process for the employer into a pleasure, not a chore. You need to try to stand out.
I have done both sides of the interview desk often enough, and I can honestly say the biggest hurdle to most company’s recruitment problems are the idiotic HR staff.
Thy shalt have a degree – why? Does the job need it?
Thy shalt have experience of our CAD system – why? Has no-one EVER transferred across successfully from one CAD system to another?
Thy shalt be under 50 – why? How long are your youngsters actually going to be working there? Most companies have a younger staff turnover rate that beggars belief. Take on someone who’s 60 and you can guarantee 5 years out of them.
Etc….
Oh yes and pay scales….
I used to go on the principle that if the first port of call is the HR department, my application is finished with…
Anyway I am contracting now, so I rarely have to deal with them….
Part of the problem I believe is how engineers are classified (for lack of a better term)
As has been mentioned, many positions look for engineers who have a minimum of a bachelors degree and 3 years experience, which is not always easy to find. If HR departments opened these positions up to young engineers with a degree but minimal experience, or experienced time served engineers without a degree they might find it easier to fill jobs.
I am an experienced, time served, Corporate and Fellow member of IET, aged over 60, very fit and healthy but cannot find any way to discuss engineering employment with managers because they are fronted by incompetant HR Damagers who have no idea of innovation, engineering, multi-skilling and are devoid of any technical appraisal skills.
They just spen all their office time requesting lenghty CV’s and bin them.
Britain will never get back its core technological skills by payin peanuts to time tested engineers and fat salaries to HR departments behing whom inaffectual managers hide.
As an experienced Engineer and Manager across a number of sectors, I am of the opinion that, to people outside of industry, the word ‘Engineer’ does not offer much credence and is often misused. Consequently, it is not held in the same high regard as ‘Doctor’ or ‘Accountant’. For this reason, it is not always an appealing career path to the potential next generation. Add to this the lack of career opportunities with genuine progression and it becomes evident that there is a significant problem to overcome – Most notably changing the perception of what an engineer is or does. Until this is rectified, attracting the required calibre of future engineers remains difficult.
Personally I am an avid support of the Year in Industry Scheme and annual undergraduate placements. This has mutual benefits as it is a perfect way to attract talent to an organisation and for potential engineers of the future to see how diverse a career in engineering can.
Recruiting into more experienced positions presents a different challenge, especially in times of austerity, when more often than not potential candidates are choosing to stick with their current positions, and the additional employment rights this can offer, rather than ‘risk’ moving. Improving financial growth in the UK should hopefully help to stimulate the job market.
It doesn’t help when you have “political” managers who know less than the engineers but are paid 2-3 times that of the engineers
There may be a shortage of skilled engineers, but ‘I’ don’t see the jobs advertised for the highly skilled, 50 plus age group who don’t have a degree but buckets of experience.
Having recently sat through numerous interviews, only ~5% of applicants had the relevant knowledge that meant they could have got started with little to no development, they both turned down the role.
Where roles have been filled in the past with ‘experienced’ engineers, they’ve been unable to pick up new concepts or slow to learn. Engineering roles will invariably require very specific knowledge that most candidates will not be able to bring with them so the best approach (from experience) is to employ the brightest candidates regardless of experience or relevant knowledge and invest in their development, the pay back very quickly exceeds that of more ‘experienced’ but less bright engineers.
So sad that skill are being ‘retired off’
fellow bloggers might enjoy a recent letter to the Times
Dear Sir,
* Big Bang Exhibition at NEC to encourage school children to study Science/Engineering and join the real wealth-creating economy[average salary for graduates £34,000 pa]
* Bloody Sunday inquiry cost £119 million and took 12 years [whatever happened to its value Engineering and efficiency]
* QC is to be paid ( at a reduced rate?) of £3,000 per hour to find out if Libor rates were ‘fixed’ by Bank of England Staff in cahoots with other banks?
* Defense Barristers and solicitors on strike for more pay? [apparently trying to correct or cover-up the prosecuting lawyers errors is worth more that £68,000 pa ie X2 of normal Engineers salaries
Four recent articles in the Times:
just who is trying to pull the wool over who’s eyes?
As long as this legal ‘free-for-all’ goes unchallenged, who should any youngster (guided by their parents, school or whatever) wish to be any part of the real economy.
Wake me up when sanity returns, if it ever does or will
Mike Blamey
Experience? Actually many firms mean age when they use this word!
I have throughout my life always tried to differentiate between experience(see above) and experiences. One can have an experience-singular- which lasts for 10 seconds or at most a minute and colours the rest of your life -for both good or ill! I was always dubious of folk who told me “old Simpkins, he has 25 years experience” when in fact he had only the same 6 months experience repeated 50 times!
“Are you capable of adding to the sum of the knowledge we use in our company to further its affairs, and as you become more experienced and knowledgeable in our business, could you take an increasing part in defining what that future might be?” Anyone who provided a satisfactory answer to that question I would employ without hesitation. The rest are simply there to make up the numbers.
best
Mike B
When I want an engineer who can work on my ITAR clients projects I invariably hire someone who’s over 50 because there is such a small pool of younger British born engineers – available talented engineers under 30 seem to be foreign nationals 75% of the time (and I would hire them like a shot if I could). Today’s youngsters need to understand that engineering is a great career option, government and industry need to try harder to promote it and established engineers need to resist the call to become project managers.