Readers of The Engineer did not reflect the national poll for membership of the EU, narrowly backing remaining within the Union.
The results of our poll, which had 1,364 respondents, were almost exactly the reverse of the national result, with 53 per cent backing remaining within the EU and 43 per cent backing Brexit. Just 4 per cent of respondent were undecided.
Uncertainty is still dominating the picture nationally, with Sterling and shares both losing value steeply on the markets and Prime Minister David Cameron announcing his resignation in the autumn. Industry and academia have called on the government to work to protect as many of the advantages of EU membership as possible.
Please continue to send us your views on this subject.
Modern life is based on trade; both in volume and market share. A smaller (isolated) market offers far less options, scope and value.
‘Life’ is based on trade, markets will remain, they wont disappear if we leave the EU.
Whatever the result it will be for the government of the day to run the country and its economy for the country to prosper. By the way, I am undecided!
@Pops: As noted elsewhere, it is all about trading. Before we joined up we had a home market of about 45 million people with high cost/high prices that attracted in a lot of foreign goods. Our car industry , although bent on self destruction, would have survived if there hadn’t been a strong flow of imports to satisfy demand. Now we have a home market of 500 million and we compete sensibly (i.e. without the 1970s attitudes) to grow our share of this and external markets. We are even on course to resuming our reputation as a maker of goods.
Leaving now would just push us back into that small home market scenario (okay 60-ish M today) with, as Boris liked to point out, German manufacturers eagerly offering us their output.
Faced with that prospect, I’m IN.
You are right and from my point of view, we need a strong EU as a counter weight against PRC/USA/Asia. The EU is the only “country” , with a real democracy and freedom.
I’m “Out” it is not a pretty picture to stay in !!!
That’s not a reply–it’s common prejudice going against common sense-ever actually been to the Continent? Their way of life is one to aim at, especially Germany, who have got where it is now by hard work from a world bombed flat—though that does seem a native characteristic we might consider
Remain in of course, it’s really a no-brainer. The only major business figures backing Brexit are Bamford [inherited his global business, lives in the Channel islands] and Dyson [took his manufacturing offshore, so he cares].
If the leave campaign win, a combination of right-wing Tories [including the court-jester ex-London Mayor] and Nigel Farage and his little-Englanders will be running the country – that is not a Government that will do anything for UK manufacturing.
It’s better that people we know are running the country than anonymous bureaucrats in Brussels, at least then if we don’t like what they do we can vote them out at the next election.
JCB has been fined before by the EU for dodgy business practices. They’d probably prefer to be left alone to fix the UK market.
There are good arguments to be made for not leaving the EU Ken, but you don’t make them here.
So if you want to leave you are little-Englander as opposed to those that wish to remain who are being little Europeaners – think global where the real future and growth is not in a stagnant Europe with ever increasing unemployment.
My relatives fought and in some cases died to protect our freedom from tyranny and it should not be sacrificed to an unelected bureaucracy and let’s face it I do not know an economist who could forecast six months ahead so all the economical statements are rubbish. These manufacturers should man-up and get on with the job instead of hoping for handouts from a corrupt organisation.
Vote for freedom!!!
If the causes they fought and died for have any relevance to the referendum then surely it is “for the freedom to vote as we please?” Those at the EU being “unelected” is an oft trotted out fallacy. Just how do you think Farage got in?
I voted In by moving here from outside. As such I can’t vote. It’s the fourth country I’m working in after my birth. If I’m not welcome here, I’ll just move on. I’m always saving for removal costs. Would be nice to spend money on something else for a change.
I’m out It’s not just about business. I’m old enough to have lived and worked both inside and outside of the EU/common market as it was, and personally I was better off outside. And for the record when we were outside I worked for a French company both in France and the UK.
Back in 1975 I voted not to join and all my reasons for not joining then have come true. However, now we are in, I think we should stay in and try and change the EU back into the Common Market we were all told we were joining in 1975. Had we be voting to join today I’m not sure I would vote to join.
In 1975 we were already in and the question was whether we wanted to leave. The Single European Act (1986), the Maastricht Treaty (1992), The Amsterdam Treaty (1997) and The Treaty of Lisbon (2007) were all subsequently implemented without us having a say in whether that was what we wanted. We missed our opportunity to leave in 1975, and it has taken 41 years to get another chance. Lets not screw it up this time!
75 was an in/out vote, too. We never had a vote to join.
In – The UK needs to be part of the EU future as well as being part of the world’s future
The EU – Safe, Stable and Stagnant
One of the problems of asking and over relying on the opinion of businesses of all sizes is that from an individual company’s point of view trade (ie selling) their goods is the focus to their thinking. As Phil Mullan points out in this article http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/no-remain-has-not-won-the-economic-argument/18431 trade is only one part of the equation. Another, which should be of especial interest to Engineers is production and productivity. We know that production of ‘things’ has not entirely gone away but productivity in the EU as a whole (and the related are of growth) is low, with the UK even lower than parts of the rest of the EU (no – not a reason to stay). We’ve kept people employed yes, but at ever decreasing wage levels, whilst flattening productivity and economic growth.
So, many businesses would prefer to complain of the ‘risk’ of barriers to trade preventing growth in sales volumes, whilst ignoring and evading their own (and the government’s) failings to honestly recognise and address the productivity issue which may lead to higher ‘real growth.
Finally, although open to debate it is ironic than many companies who are so fond of talking about disruptive business models and technologies (surely likely to produce uncertainty?) seem so scared about the disruption around altering our trading and industry model, immediately suggesting Armageddon. Of course existing businesses crave stability rather than disruption through the creation of new competitive industries, business models or even trade models.
I Design and built machines and some have been exported to Europe. For me it is no different working in Holland, German, or Ireland than in the UK.
English is a common language and so is engineering, so why would we want to make business more complicated.
The engineers I work with in Europe want to come to the UK for holidays just as I want to go to France for mine.
Business is all about supply and demand. If we need more plumbers and nurses then it makes sense to make travel and working in Europe as easy as possible. It is for me.
Easy for wealthy countries. Not so easy for emerging countries we strip of their physical and intellectual talent. Open borders are another failed EU policy they just won’t give up. Wine lakes, food/butter mountains, fisheries and agricultural policies are but a few more. They also induced misery on the third world who were restricted in trading with the EU causing starvation. But at least we made lots of fertiliser.
It’s a tough call; on one side it’s obvious that if you have a good product then it will sell, so being in or out won’t effect that. And, on the other side if your competing in Europe as a minority, then the majority will steal your idea and sell it as their own squishing you in the process. There’s no safe guard for that (in or out). If we’re buying into an ideal, then why aren’t there any guarantees? It’s pure speculation. As an engineer It all seems flaky to me.
Brexit is nothing to do with trade (nothing to stop us trading with the EU if we leave) nor immigration. It’s to do with exiting an organisation with unaccountable, political ambitions. Unelected bureaucrats running a state the size of the US with ambitions to raise it’s own army (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-plans-that-could-pave-way-for-an-eu-army-are-being-held-back-a7052501.html) does this ring any bells?
Our current austerity is largely at the behest of the EU who want to drive countries to conform to a common economic standard that just isn’t possible. In the meantime it has paved the way for the decimation of the BBC, creeping privatisation of our NHS and cruel impositions on our welfare state. Our contributions to the EU have supported many causes, countries and businesses but our once successful, if flawed, social society is something the EU doesn’t want because it doesn’t conform to a spreadsheet.
Of course there will be challenges if we leave, but we’ll be masters of our own destiny and free of a EU that we joined as a simple Common Market and watched as it morphed into a political monster. It’s not what we signed up for.
The EU is a very imperfect institution but voting to leave would be pure unadulterated insanity.
The whole prospect is very saddening.
There will of course be winners in each scenario. It is likely that the great British housing bubble would finally burst if we left, which would at last give ordinary young people the chance of buying their own home. If they still have a job, that is.
Can’t think of any other advantages at all.
Here’s hoping for sanity.
The economics and facts obviously say remain. Whilst a currency devaluation will help some businesses to export more, so would a 20% pay cut, but we don’t vote for that.
If the economic arguments don’t persuade people, then they should listen to David Beckham.
The responses from Robert and Ken just about sum up the level of ‘objective’ debate that we have seen from the two camps so far.
I just hope that everyone actually goes out and casts a vote on what is a key decision for the future of our country.
So the remainer’s are on the side of Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs etc etc who have done such marvellous things for manufacture ring in this country. No one has mentioned immigration which is what over 60% of the people are concerned about. Cameron has lied repeatedly about this including the other evening on TV when he could not say whether he would be able to stop Turkey from the free movement inherent in the EU. Cameron stated before the last election that he would limit immigration to less than 100,000 which he could not do and he has been lying ever since. Why won’t the remainers state how much immigration they will allow. It is not racialist or “little Englander” to want to control inputs and outputs, something which all engineers should understand. How are you going to deal with 300,000 immigrants every year, which has happened for the last 3 years? Where are the resources to deal with this influx?
Most of our manufacturing companies are also on the side of remain. Especially the multinational ones who really have done marvellous things for manufacturing.
Turkey is a red herring. Or rather a lie. There is zero chance of them joining. There is zero chance of Cameron having to decide.
As for immigration, the UK has found it impossible to control immigration from outside the EU, which exceeds immigration from inside the EU. If you squeeze EU immigration, you’ll just get more immigrants from Asia and Africa to the work done by EU immigrants.
If you want to revert back to the mindset of the early 1900’s Times headline ” Fog in channel continent isolated” vote out . Or if you what to be part of the modern world it has to be IN.
Leaving will not prevent us trading with Europe nor going on holiday there, nor them coming on holiday here (the USA and China are not in the EU, and we have plenty of tourists from those countries). For me this is about the long term. What will the EU be like in 20 or 30 years time and is that what we will still want o be a member of? If we stay in we will (as before) be trying to swim against the tide of “ever closer integration”. We will be trying to stop the European Army from becoming a reality and we will (hopefully) be vetoing Turkish membership, but these things have a habit of developing their own momentum and becoming unstoppable if the Eurocrats want it to happen. I have no doubt that the cost of being a member will continue to rise way above inflation with no accountability. I’m for leaving now while we have the chance!
Oh, and by the way did you notice that Theresa May let the cat out of the bag the other day when she said that we will still need restrictions on the free movement of labour if we remain! Does anyone seriously think that will happen? A Building Contractor interviewed on TV said that if we leave he will have to start training UK nationals to be builders and plumbers instead of bringing ready trained Eastern Europeans over here. To me that is a great reason to leave – it will give our young people more opportunities.
What does voting LEAVE mean according to Boris and his affluent cronies?
It means divorce from Europe. Peering through his rose-tinted spectacles, Boris imagines that we will still get to sleep with the wife, and that she will still wash, iron, cook and clean for us until we have the decree absolute. And then we’ll walk away with the house, all the money in the bank accounts, both cars and the villa in Spain. We will get seven-day access to the kids, pets and the au pair.
It sounds fantastic! What could we possibly have to lose?
But remember: we would not be divorcing just one partner, but TWENTY SEVEN partners. Do you think they will all agree to go quietly, handing over everything we want? Are they going to be happy we are trying to break up the EU? Are they b****cks!
Being a member of the EU is like being in a marriage. It requires effort. There are always differences and arguments, but you work together to maintain the status quo. Like in all good relationships you cannot be selfish; you must always put in more than you take out.
VOTE REMAIN – we need to keep our friends.
Did not think much to the argument. We are not divorcing ourselves from the EU. We just want to live in our ‘own house’ and be friendly with the neighbours. The putting in more argument as an EU member does not hold in the EU community; 18 of the 28 states take more out than they put in; that is, they are on ‘benefits’. I can’t wait to leave.
What an absurd argument! Of course the remaining 27 member states will continue to trade with us. You are applying emotion to this. “Countries have no friends, only interests” is a quote I heard recently, and it is very true. Countries will do what is in their interest whether we leave or remain, so if a trading relation ship is in their interests (which it is because they still will want to sell to us) they will trade with us. If we remain, the other 17 member states will continue to vote for what is in their own interests, rather than what is in ours.
I think the divorce analogy is pretty thin- although many have been using it – but anyway beyond the idea of a marriage with 27 partners – in reality the closer model is that there are 27 parents and many of the ‘children’ are getting rebellious. To get any level of authourity the ‘parents’ have decided to stick together as they can only get authourity as a ‘group’- despite their differences . When people talk about the partners being up happy about one parent leaving – yes the parents might – but the kids may have other ideas….I’m with the kids – as it’s their future
I used the divorce analogy because it is what is being used in the EU about us leaving. I watched a Swedish documentary discussing our referendum . They interviewed politicians across the EU. The word “divorce” was used on a number of occasions. The senior German politician they interviewed said the following. “The UK is a member of a club. They want to leave the club and stop paying the fees but they still want to use all the clubs facilities. Do you think the other club members will accept this?”
If they want us to buy Ikea chairs, Mercedes cars and Butoni ravioli, of course they will deal with us. Deals are deals, sales are sales, clubs are meaningless cliques of insecure people who crave control. Have consumers all joined the same club buying insurance products? Of course not.
It seems to me, all the talk about trade and the economy etc is irrelevant. A smoke screen. Because the remain camp has no persuasive argument. Only emotion, scare stories and name-calling.
Where there is a will to do business, business will be transacted.
The referendum is to decide who governs us. Who makes our laws. Who is the final arbiter in legal matters.
Unelected and unaccountable people in Brussels, or democratically elected and accountable representatives in Westminster.
For me the issues are: Representative political autonomy, accountability, military security, and border control.
I intend to vote ‘leave’.
Give me a single instance -however small–of how the EU has affected your life detrimentally
Whether you’re aware of it or not, austerity is not restricted to the UK, it is an EU policy to whip every country into line. In the UK it has been the source of a raid on the NHS and creeping privatisation, despite the promises of ringfencing; it has also been the reason used to castrate the BBC, and whilst it needed reform the current charge to get rid of it in all but name alone is reprehensible. Finally, our social services have been cruelly slashed, again, in some cases it was required but not to the extent it has. Ever wondered why there are so many serious incidents perpetrated by the mentally ill? The old asylums they used to be locked up in were closed (rightly) with care in the community considered more effective and humane, except that over the past 20 years care in the community has become a joke.
How many more instances would you like me to quote, I could discuss the Police, Fire service, the judiciary etc.
How is this associated with the EU rather than UK government policy? One of the triggers for the global recession was UK reformation of banking regulations – not reformations imposed by the EU.
If Putin and Trump both think OUT is a good idea then it must be wrong!
And remain is supported by JP Morgan, Branson and Beckham. All stinking rich and subjects of the neoliberalist community the EU is building.
Didn’t we English preach better together to Scotland! So why so much upset when our international allies and friends tell us better together in the EU? United we will stand divided offers the option of a fall. Why take a chance? Stay together better together.
I was a NO vote the last time. We made our bed and if it’s become lumpy we change the mattress not the whole bed!! A good start Cameron. IN.
The difference between the United States of Europe (The Euro) and the United States of Britain (The Pound) is that we redistribute taxes to the poorer states such as Scotland. In the Euro zone taxes are not redistributed. Instead Germany lends money, with interest, to the poor nations such as Greece. In this way Germany gets richer and the poor countries get poorer. Germany in particular believes buying into the European club is a way of redistributing wealth through ‘grants from the bureaucrats’, but it is not based on the Euro.
So the money leaving the UK towards Greece is in fact a loan that has to be paid back with interest?
I am a Scot although unable to vote in that referendum, but had I been able to it would have been a NO. Even as the referendum was being campaigned, the oil price was dropping like a stone, Scotland would be virtually bankrupt today had it been a YES. Aberdeen is a virtual ghost town now.
In the EU’s case, the reason to vote out is to avoid the creeping onset of an unelected, unaccountable government, creating a superstate that answers to no one. They have already screwed up the Monetary Fund, created wine lakes and butter mountains simply to artificially prop up prices and repel competition and comprehensively cocked up the Euro. Now they are planning a European Army, a chilling thought, that means the Germans get access to nuclear weapons in France and the UK, and there is still bad blood between the Germans and Russia.
Irrespective of whether the EU crumbles or not, we should get out whilst the going’s good, nor are we the only country with a population divided over the subject.
A standard of commentary from fellow Engineers that is an order of magnitude more courteous and caring (even if there are differences) than any that our apparent ‘betters’ on either side of the dabate have offered. I would only make a single point: it is one I have made before. Civil servants (those paid by the state or State or even STATE -at different levels of our administration (local, national, international) – do not vote (nor do turkeys) for an early Christmas. What gives them the most personal reward? That is what they will advocate. Perhaps of all professionals we operate under the same ‘laws’ -those of nature: and if we break such, both detection and punishment are immediate. Not so other ‘clerks’.
I’m happy to remain “in” -for no other reason that the two generations of my family before me were decimated by wars. I do not wish there to be another.
The EU is corrupt, the accounts have not been approved by the auditors for years, it is undemocratic, rules are made by unelected civil servants, it is incompetent, they cannot even decide whether to meet in Brussels or Strasbourg so they meet in both at great expense to us the taxpayer, and they busy themselves with petty legislation about vacuum cleaner power whilst failing to solve the problem of violence in Ukraine, Kosovo, Syria, or any of the many other conflicts that lead to migration on a massive scale. The EU has failed to protect its original raison d’etre the Coal and Steel Industries of Europe. However, we need Europe to provide a powerful voice, 500 million of us, to counter Russia, the USA and China. We should vote in and work to get our, the EU, voice heard to counter the aggression of the other world powers.
It appears to me that facts are few and far between from both sides of the debate and boils down to “the better the Devil you know than the Devil you don’t”
We are hearing are lots of opinions the latest is that “Nobel Laureate Economists” are all in agreement that we remain – and they of course with all their expertise and experience predicted the Economic Crisis that caused the last recession so well in advance that we hardly noticed when it hit us – so we should of course believe them now.
Try telling that to the thousands of small businesses that went bust
Then there are the EU ministers who have stated on record that if we leave they will “make us pay” by making life so difficult for us to trade with them – with “EU Friends like them who needs Enemies”. Indeed even if we remain some senior EU politicians have said they will make it difficult for having the temerity to consider leaving.
Do we want to be a member of an EU that can be openly that unfriendly towards us?
However, are we not in danger of losing sight of the main issues – not just the economic ones?
When my Father enlisted in the last War he wasn’t fighting for a stable economy or for keeping as many jobs as possible going in London’s Square Mile, or for any industrial sector. He was fighting for things far more important namely “our Sovereignty, our Security and Safety, and the Right to govern ourselves” without interference from foreign powers.
Even if the EU made life difficult or more expensive for us even for the next 5 years or so would this be a price worth paying for these precious rights?
What worries me the most however is that the EU is in a financial mess, and getting worse, no real solutions regarding control of migration, and is itself constantly changing – into what who knows?
So, bottom line is what will happen if we leave we don’t really know, if we stay we don’t really know but at least we will be the decision makers for our own destiny!
Unless someone can persuade me otherwise on the 23rd June I am today inclined to leave the EU.
Well put.
This whole debate seems to be fuelled by myths and legends. Unelected people governing us! Which MEP did you vote for or were you too busy that day? Commissioners! Appointed by your elected representatives in Westminster. Whilst we have been members of the EU we have the 5th largest economy, we are the 11th largest manufacturing nation and have one of the fastest growth rates in the world and now a group of dodgy politicians and an ex banker want to take a punt on us doing better on our own. Yea right.
We have sovereignty already, we have made it quite clear that we are not interested in further political integration and want to keep our currency. I can’t really see what the fear on that score is.
On the other side of it, being able to move around is wonderful professionally and every other way. Can one imagine America being such a success with people forced to stay in their home state? Hypothetically, if we could get the same deal with America as well then I would want to sign up immediately and then roam the 2 continents. Pity that’s not on the cards really.
and they busy themselves with petty legislation about vacuum cleaner power whilst failing to solve the problem of violence in Ukraine, Kosovo, Syria, or any of the many other conflicts that lead to migration on a massive scale.
Surely, the reason for this is simple: they are incapable (they have no vision)of making any contribution to the latter, so as you say ‘busy themselves’ with trivia.
Clerks have done that throughout History. Indeed that is all they do.
A reluctant “In”. Had the EU ever been and remained the truly free trading zone we were promised, it would be a definitive “In”, but its socialist intrusion into every aspect of our lives and unfair trading rules would make me want to vote a definitive “Out” had thirteen years of Labour’s economic sabotage left our economy in a fit state to survive the inevitable shock accompanying exit.
I was starting and growing businesses before 1970 unlike most of the commentators.
My customers in the EU and worldwide, have tested approved and fitted my equipment they will continue to do so if we leave. The EU had to buy from Microsoft and Apple or be third world, if you make products or provide services the world wants to buy, they will buy them. I’m for out.
Apple was producing the hardware, I did my 1st computer courses on.
Microsoft undercut Apple to get it’s blunder out, when I considered to by my 1st computer
and Atari was a strong contender – actually it was Atari or X86-achitecture and some
kind of UNIX, since I couldn’t/wouldn’t afford an Apple PowerMac and I wouldn’t suffer
Windows 3.*.
My vendor lent me Interactive Unix for a while (which I couldn’t really afford),
and then Linux came to rescue. I’ve been a Linux/UNIX guy ever since.
Years later, working for Siemens, I had the pleasure to work with the highly performant,
extremely stable, excellently documented Sinix Z. Ever heard of that before?
me neither then 😉
So in my opinion, everything Microsoft gave to the world was a *CHEAP* operating system. Probably in the hopes, to iron out all the rubbish, once they had driven Apple
out of mainstream business – which they basically achieved with NT 4.0.
3rd world without them? I think not – maybe we even had better hardware here now.
The EU started life as an Economic Community but it is sad to see this argument carried on in purely economic terms – are we going to be a bit richer or a bit poorer if we chose a certain path. Recently several countries, wrecked by being run as totalitarian states, have joined and raised fears of mass movement of their peoples to the wealthier states of Western Europe. Rather than chose Isolation we should remain in the Community and fight to improve the lot of all of Europe not just LIttle England.
The record of the EU is pretty poor in its efficiency and democratic accountability but we are never going to help steer it to better things if we are just shouting at it from the outside. Let us argue from within for democratic institutions and improvements to poorer areas to make them desirable places to live and bring up families.
I think it means there is a good chance of him becoming PM, which I have to assume is his main motivation for backing Brexit.
Whilst he is a good speaker and an excellent writer, I would not trust him to run the country during a Brexit recession. He will waffle and paffle but not actually solve the problems.
The nightmare scenario would be that the electorate blame him and the conservative for the Brexit recession and austerity, and vote in Corbyn in 2020. With a rising deficit and shrinking economy, the IMF are called in around 2022 to set emergency budgets.
Now THAT would be a loss of sovereignty.
Having the right to travel and work freely in the EU is not a loss of sovereignty.
Stay in. Why? Because Jo Cox asked you to: “We have far more in common than which divides us.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/22/jo-cox-murder-inspired-more-love-than-hatred-says-husband-brendan
And because the “out” vote leaders have no solid, rational, contemporary arguments. Plus being so aggressive, inciting hatred with lethal consequences, provincial and rude should be totally off-putting.
Quote Mark Twain:
“If voting ever changed anything they wouldn’t allow us to do it.”
From the USA we are cheering you on. Your “EU” is similar to our NAFTA except it has not evolved into an all-powerful, unaccountable entity that dictates everything you do. Europe has been down that road before. Congratulations and remember that many unpleasant changes are actually blessings in disguise.
Mark Twain (or was it Gaucho Mar(x) or was it Karl?) also said ” I would not belong to any club which thought me suitable to be a member” I think I know how he felt!
It was Groucho Marx, hence the name of London’s Groucho Club.
Is what way is the Engineer poll “an exact reversal” of the national picture? The difference in percent votes is ten, not four.
“Countries have no friends, only interests”
Reminds me of the lovely conversation between an old sweat soldier and a young recruit in
“All Quiet on the Western Front” I paraphrase, but I believe the concept is clear!
“We are at war with ..”X” That country has a disagreement with us and we are going to resolve it by fighting them.”
“Are you saying that a tree of a hill or a river of theirs has taken a dislike to a valley or a lake or a road of ours and that is why we are having this war?” No answer. There never is!